I Need Blue

Michelle: Honoring Maddisyn Colleen and Educating About Shallow Water Blackout

• Jennifer Lee/Michelle C. Butler • Season 4 • Episode 11

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After the devastating loss of her daughter Maddisyn Colleen to a shallow water blackout, Michelle opens up about her journey through grief and healing. In this deeply emotional conversation, Michelle shares the wisdom and kindness Maddi left behind, and how her untimely death became a catalyst for Michelle’s personal growth.

Candidly recounting the emotional turmoil of guilt and broken promises, Michelle reflects on her path through PTSD and the transformative power of community and creative expression. 

From ketamine therapy to meditation, Michelle explores unconventional methods of healing while building a community that supports those facing similar losses. Join us as we honor Maddisyn’s life, discover the lessons Michelle learned, and find hope in the darkest of times.


Her book, "Please Don't Say That Sh*t," offers a poignant and practical guide for those struggling with unhelpful comments in grief, providing insight into the healing process and the importance of a supportive network.

If you're in need of immediate support or help with thoughts of self-harm, please reach out to someone you trust or contact a mental health professional. If you're experiencing a crisis, I encourage you to call a suicide prevention hotline, such as:

  • National Suicide Prevention Lifeline (U.S.): 988

You don’t have to go through this alone—help is available, and reaching out is a brave first step.

Contact Michelle: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/michellecbutler11


To order "Please don't say that Sh*t!":
https://www.amazon.com/Please-Dont-Say-That-Sh-ebook/dp/B0CLL1DJXV/ref=sr_1_1crid=19R94WI81LAKP&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.RV8mOSMjcI0aKHqfj71ZqtMW_nP6NhIMI2bJCIQxEoWDKNvdISe5wMi8MyPGwrMjGKVdoXe97EUzLVA5Va-VtJBZ9xyBMhFrA2XWouFVmUU.BOYsXs7xl89u7LgR-o7SuH2UJo-gcpW_Q9SJ-0fxw7w&dib_tag=se&keywords=please+dont+say+that+sh*t&qid=1732303517&sprefix=please+dont+say+that+sh+t%2Caps%2C105&sr=8-1

To order "Befriending my Grief Monster":
https://www.amazon.com/Befriending-My-Grief-Monster-Navigating/dp/B0CVLMN4TL/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

To attend a healing session at the Center for Spiritual Care in Vero Beach, FL:
FB: https://www.facebook.com/CenterForSpiritualCare/

Connect with Jen:
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/ineedbluepodcast/
YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp1q8SfA_hEXRJ4EaizlW8Q
Facebook:  
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61567221068683
Website:
https://ineedblue.net/
Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/i-need-blue/id1567450935

Loved this episode? Leave a review and rating on Spotify or Apple Podasts.

Purchase my book or Audiobook: Why I Survived:  How Sharing My Story Helped Me Heal from Dating Abuse, Armed Robbery, Abduction, and Other Forms of Trauma by Jennifer Lee
https://whyisurvived.com/

The background music is written, performed and produced exclusively by Char Good.
https://chargood.com/home

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Speaker 1:

Everyone has a story. They just don't always have a place to share it. Welcome to I Need Blue, the podcast about to take you on an extraordinary journey where profound narratives come to life, one captivating episode at a time. I'm your host, jennifer Lee, and I founded this podcast because I know there is healing and sharing. Each story you will hear shared on this podcast is a testament to our collective strength, innate ability to transform in the incredible power of healing. Please remember you are never alone. Please visit and share my website with those seeking connection and inspiration wwwineedbluenet. Thank you, char Good, for composing and performing the introduction medley for I Need Blue. You can find information about Char on her website, wwwchargoodcom.

Speaker 1:

Before starting today's episode, I must provide a trigger warning. I Need Blue features graphic themes, including, but not limited to, violence, abuse and murder, and may not be suitable for all listeners. Please take care of yourself and don't hesitate to ask for help if you need it. Now let's get started with today's story. I met my friend and today's guest, michelle, while networking. I watched her walk around the restaurant greeting friends, smiling and handing out books to people eager to support her story. I was curious about this author and her journey.

Speaker 1:

Today we honor Michelle's daughter, maddie. She died at the young age of 17 from shallow water blackout. We will discuss what shallow water blackout is. For years, michelle dealt with grief and battling suicidal tendencies. Her, everything, her best friend, her biggest advocate and cheerleader, and her precious baby girl were gone. The grief was debilitating. Finally, in 2023, she bravely decided to surrender to living. Since then, she has been committed to living. Since then, she has been committed to living. Yesterday, october 24th, I celebrated Maddie's 24th birthday with Michelle and a group of amazing people. We sang happy birthday, blew bubbles, ate cupcakes, hugged, celebrated and supported two amazing women, maddie and Michelle. Michelle has published a series of books about navigating loss and healing and another insightful book about what not to say to someone grieving. We will discuss her books and the links will be in the show notes. Michelle, thank you for being my friend and welcome to the I Need Blue podcast.

Speaker 2:

Thank you back and thank you for being my friend as well. I really do appreciate you.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. I'm so glad we connected for sure. You know. I'd like to begin today's episode. Let's talk about Maddie, and then we'll go from there.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think you know, when I think about Maddie, I just think about the lessons that she left behind for me, the ways that she made a real impact on my life. You know, one of the ways was just her sweet gentle, loving Christian. She was innately Christian. She was born a Jesus follower and I never really had to teach that to her and in fact she was always teaching that to me because we lived in Castle Rock, colorado at the time. That's where I raised her and we often had to drive into Denver for real estate meetings or whatever.

Speaker 2:

If you've ever driven in Denver, the traffic is horrible and you know I was always in a hurry because that child was always late. So I was always in a hurry and rushing through traffic and I'm, you know, cussing someone out one morning and she said mom, you need to stop that. You have no idea what that woman has been through already. This morning she said she could have been beaten by her husband, you don't know. And now you want to make her life worse because of traffic. She was like that just doesn't make sense. You need to stop that, mom. So little things like that. She was always putting me in check where life was concerned, or Christianity, or being the better person, or learning to live in the moment.

Speaker 2:

She was diagnosed with cancer at four and a half years old. She had acute lymphoblastic leukemia. She had acute lymphoblastic leukemia and it was hard for her. We did medicine three times a day sometimes, and at four and a half I had to crush up her meds and try to hide them in something you know, which never worked. I don't know if you've ever done that before, but it tastes horrible.

Speaker 2:

She would throw up over and over and I would say, honey, we have to do it again. I'm sorry, honey, we have to do it again. I'm sorry, but what she took away from all of the suffering was to live life at the fullest. Even at seven years old, she was advocating for living the moment, be happy we're here, be grateful for life, for every breath, and God bless her. I thought that would take her the cancer and she told me no, mom, that's never going to take me, it's never coming back. Sure enough, it was not cancer that took her, it was the shallow water blackout. So she was just always teaching me how to be a better person, and I think she still is from beyond now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it sounds. It sounds like when she said to you I know I'm going to beat this cancer that she had some intuitive ways about her For sure.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it very much seems so, and even at the end of her life, because at the end of her life she came to me and said mom, I want to drop out of school, I want to move to California and I want to become famous, I want to be a model and I want to be a YouTuber and I want to have my own fashion line. And I said okay, let's go. There was something innately in both of us that knew we had to go to California then and she died only 17 days after we got there.

Speaker 1:

Wow.

Speaker 2:

So it was family night at the pool pool and I had barbecued some steaks and we were eating and they were swimming and her and her friends were seeing who could swim the farthest underwater and hold their breath the longest. She never made it to the other side. The problem with shallow water blackout is you don't realize that someone's struggling. You look over at them and you're like what are they doing over there? Because they're just on the bottom of the pool. It looks like they're looking at something or they're just holding their breath or they're whatever.

Speaker 2:

You know it doesn't look like there's a struggle going on and it's very hard to determine that they're in trouble. And the problem with that is that you only have two and a half minutes when you're drowning from shallow water blackout, because you've expended all of your oxygen, you don't have any on board and then your body's first reaction once you pass out is to breathe in and you've got two lungs full of water and that's why you sink like a rock, Like I said, two and a half minutes before you're brain dead. That is why it is a 96% fatality rate, because you don't know it's happening and you don't have any time. You know two and a half minutes is nothing.

Speaker 1:

So I cannot imagine the moments following when you realize there's something wrong.

Speaker 2:

Well, to be honest, I was in the hot tub with my step grandson and his dad. My stepson and Madison's boyfriend were in the pool with her. They started yelling mom, mom, come quick, it's real, it's real. And they were pulling her out of the pool. So by the time I got to her, I could. It's real, it's real. And they were pulling her out of the pool. So by the time I got to her, I could feel her above me and it was the weirdest feeling I've ever had in my life. It was like the closest to heaven you can imagine being. It was very peaceful, it was all knowing. It was just really bizarre and I really haven't. It was just really bizarre and I I really haven't. I don't think I've ever had any experience that like that since then or before that, you know. But I could feel her and I knew she was gone and I knew she was in heaven and I knew she wasn't coming back. I knew it was over. I knew she wasn't coming back, I knew it was over, but there was like the, the most peaceful feeling that I've ever had in my life at that moment. That soon left.

Speaker 2:

Panic set in immediately, but I kept telling them you know she's gone. And her boyfriend kept saying no, she's gurgling. And I said I know, honey, she's gone. No, no, no, no, she's breathing, she's breathing. And her boyfriend kept saying no, she's gurgling. And I said I know, honey, she's gone. No, no, no, no, she's breathing, she's breathing. And I'm like honey, that's not breathing, she's just aspirating now. And they tried to resuscitate her, which, by the way, is the most horrible thing you'll ever see in your life. Um over an hour, they beat up her body and it just was. It was horrible to watch. That's where my PTSD came from, I think.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I have a question. When you said you, you know kind of felt her. She was in heaven above you, Do you feel like a part of your spirit went with her that day?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely yeah, absolutely. Part of my soul, part of my heart, part of my whole being.

Speaker 1:

The connection. So when you say they tried to resuscitate her for an hour, was that you called 911 or was that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, we called 911, and that's another thing. Like I could hear the sirens coming because we were near the highway and the hospital was only about a mile or so away, I don't know a few miles. Like I could hear them for at least a mile, you know, coming. And so since then I have triggers from sirens too, because I could hear them. But I knew, I knew it was not going to, they weren't going to make it in time. So then they did try to resuscitate by the pool for a while and then, of course, transported her to the hospital where we all went.

Speaker 2:

And I had told her when she had cancer that I would never, ever leave her in the hospital, I would never leave her side. She was inpatient a number of times and I never left the ever leave her in the hospital. I would never leave her side. She was inpatient a number of times and I never left the hospital without her. And that was another thing that hit me hard was having to leave that hospital without her. Yeah, it was a promise broken. You know Not what I could do anything about, but it was a promise broken.

Speaker 1:

You know, I want to ask you this because from your perspective, it was a promise broken. But what if, to Maddie, it was a promise kept?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I can see that and thank you for saying that.

Speaker 1:

Of course, it's just it popped in my head. Maybe Maddie's talking.

Speaker 2:

I had a whispered in your ear.

Speaker 1:

I truly think that's how she feels about it.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for saying that. I think I needed that.

Speaker 1:

Of course, of course, and I'm going to tell you to lean into that. In your moments of feeling like you didn't do everything you could, maddie says no, you did, mom. So I think it's important you know that you can call me anytime and I'll remind you. I appreciate that, of course, of course. So this began a whole new way of living with loss, with grief, ptsd, grief, ptsd. Yeah, how did you cope with that? The support system you had? I know one of the books was very well written about what not to say to someone grieving. It's fascinating. But if you want to go into that a little bit right now, I think it would be appropriate.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I mean first, I just want to say that all of the people that have been in my life and are not in my life anymore, I don't have any ill will or anger or anything like that. I understand that this is a grueling process and not everyone can handle it. Not everyone can handle the emotions and the anger and the disparity and the just constant, I guess, dysfunction. You know that comes with grief and I don't know all grief. I know losing my daughter, that's what I know, not that I haven't lost other people, but it just didn't hit me like this, not that I was cold or calloused or anything like that. I just life and death. It's part, it's all part of it. Right, and it was.

Speaker 2:

I'm a logical person until this happened, and not not near as logical although I am. You know there's like a side of me that's I get it and I think that's the side of me that has pulled me up again. You know the emotional side of me pulls me down, but yeah, I have lost most of my friends that don't know grief. I still have a wonderful amount of Facebook friends that are very supportive. Okay, and I say Facebook friends because you know we don't hang out. They don't come and sit with me when I'm bawling, you know they don't see me on the daily where I am going through the whole roller coaster of effects, you know. But for other people, I know that it's exhausting. It's exhausting for me to be in my mind and my body, but I know it's also exhausting for the people around me. And so my first book can I say the name or no? Yeah, I know, please do, please do my first book. Please don't say that shit. And it is S, h, asterisk T, so you have to look it up that way Was really designed for other people. I think that people that are grieving get a kick out of it, because I am pretty raw and I'm pretty sarcastic and I'm angry. I wrote it at a very angry time. I had had my last straw.

Speaker 2:

Some people that live next door to Maddie and I for 10 years came through Vero Beach and I was telling them my grief journey, you know, and he got. I don't know if he just wanted to comfort me or he got uncomfortable or whatever, but he said you know she'd want you to be happy, michelle. And I said, stan, she doesn't get a vote, she doesn't get a vote. She's in heaven, she's happy, she's fine. I have a mess to deal with.

Speaker 2:

Not only did this open up pain from Madison dying, but it opened up pain from my childhood that I had stuffed down so far. I didn't know that it existed anymore. I thought I'd already processed it. I thought I'd already anymore. I thought I'd already processed it. I thought I'd already forgiven. I thought I'd already moved on. That layer of onion was gone, you know, and it really wasn't.

Speaker 2:

So I had what's called CPTSD also, which is from it's complex, it's chronic, it's from years of being traumatized over and over and over. That's something I've never even heard that term before, but obviously it makes sense that it exists, right. So with all of this coming up and the anger, the amount of anger was just overwhelming. And I know I mean I don't like to be around angry people either, I really don't, but I was one of them, you know.

Speaker 2:

So writing that book helped me get all of that out and it helped me say to the world listen, there's things you should say and there's things you shouldn't say, because it's really about the griever now. It's not about the person that's in heaven, it's not about the person that's all settled and they're all done. You know it's, they're fine, they're fine. All settled and they're all done, they're fine, they're fine. It's the person left behind that has so much to filter through and so much to go through and you don't even know, like me, they could have had a horrible childhood and all of that comes out with their grief. And here we go. It's deep and complex and it's there and it's coming out. This time there's no stuffing it. When you hurt this much, you just can't.

Speaker 1:

In regards to all of the things that you said were coming out, what one surprised you the most? And it was like oh, I didn't know that was there. I didn't know I was going to experience this.

Speaker 2:

The suicidal stuff, wanting to die. I'd never been that person and I, honestly, I had judged people that were suicidal and I thought it was selfish and wrong, and I think that's one of my bigger lessons, too, is to not judge people anymore. Just, you don't know what they're going through, you know. But it surprised me a lot that I could get to a point where I was planning my own death. I just always been a happy, go, lucky, deal with it, 24 hours, process it, brush it off, get up and go, and that's that's who I was before this buckled my knees, you know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, can I ask how did you get out of the mindset of I want to kill myself?

Speaker 2:

Well, the second book had something to do with that, and that one is Befriending my Grief Monster. After I wrote the one about you know how to talk to us, then I wrote the one about how we get through this and I swear it was God writing through my hands because I I have to go back and read my book again I've read it four or five times. I have to go back when I get funky. I have to go back and read my steps again and read what works again and you know, implement that in my life again. Because we get busy in life and we forget our um, our scheduled things that help us be lovely human beings, Absolutely we.

Speaker 1:

We forget to be intentional.

Speaker 2:

Yes, intentional, right. So that's kind of how it started. And then I also found ketamine therapy. Couldn't have done any of this without ketamine therapy. I started ketamine a year and a half ago and then I wrote these books just a year ago. So I've probably been doing that for six months before my brain actually started working enough. I could put two words together, which you know, as in, it's all cyclical, right.

Speaker 2:

I had the PTSD. I couldn't stand leaving the house. I couldn't stand what people were saying to me when I did leave the house, so that would trigger me. I isolated myself. Then I became so depressed that I was suicidal. And then I was so suicidal that it just was. You know what I'm saying. I couldn't get a grip on it. I couldn't make the cycle stop. Once I started ketamine therapy, it started breaking the cycle. It started healing my brain. The PTSD was less, the anxiety was less. I started to feel joy every once in a while. Again, I hadn't felt joy in shoot, three, four years. You know, not even I couldn't even feel a moment of joy. I could feel a moment of well, that doesn't suck, but I couldn't feel like, wow, this is awesome, thank you, god, you know, and that's a very, very different place.

Speaker 1:

Right and the ketamine came from a doctor or therapist.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely yes. By the way and I say this many times because people say, oh, isn't that what Matthew Perry died from? And I'll say it again right here no, he died from drug addiction. Ketamine might have been the end-all be-all, but he died because he was using it inappropriately the way he did. So, anyway, that saved my life. So I have a very different feeling about ketamine than some people do, and I think it needs to be clarified. You know, Absolutely yeah. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for ketamine, and ketamine is something that when I feel like the dark cloud, the doom is coming, I can do a ketamine therapy session and journal about it. Another thing you want to do is be very intentional with what you're trying to heal and what you're trying to do, where you're trying to go in your brain and the outcome that you want. It's a lot of work and it's hard work. It's a lot of deep diving into your soul and your background and your history and your upbringing.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, absolutely, and I always have said if you go to therapy and it's easy, you're at the wrong therapist go to therapy and it's easy, you're at the wrong therapist, that's right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you know, to be honest, I did have traditional therapy for a while and it helped. It was okay. It was traditional therapy. I also did EMDR therapy eye movement desensitization and reprogramming. Desensitization and reprogramming I don't know that it helped. This time it was online over the computer, like you know, a zoom call almost, or whatever the doctors do, and so maybe that was part of why it didn't work as well, because I wasn't actually with her in the room. I don't know, but nothing helped me like ketamine therapy. So and ketamine therapy literally did 10 years worth of therapy in like 10 months.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I've never tried it, so I can't give a personal testimony on that, but you know what I appreciate about your insight, as that part of the platform of my podcast is to provide resources, because talk therapy isn't going to work for everyone. Like you said, the EMDR is not going to work for everyone. So I enjoy people that come on and share what has worked for them and, like you said, work with a therapist, a doctor, with anything, because I am not a doctor or a therapist. I'm just here to share options from people. One thing I found interesting is the order of your books, because you wrote the first book you wrote was for other people, the second book you wrote was for you. Most people would probably do that backwards, right.

Speaker 2:

There was a straw that broke the camel's back. That day, though, stan opened me up and thank you, stan, because he probably helped the world. I had had one too many things said to me. My book actually has, on the left-hand side, what someone has said and what my thought was in the moment and thankfully I didn't say those things most of the time and then why it doesn't work. And then, on the right hand page, you have on the flip side, what you can say to somebody who's grieving, and why it works, why it's beneficial, why it builds a bridge between the two of you and helps you know a foundation form that is secure and loving, and you can heal together. I think we all have things to heal, so I really think that's important to do it together.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, absolutely, and I don't think the healing ever stops. No, because when you think you've healed one thing and maybe you did then life it's life. You get curve balls. Whenever you deal with people you did, then life it's life, you get curveballs. Whenever you deal with people, something new comes up. But it's really about finding the healthy ways to get yourself better.

Speaker 2:

And another aspect of the healing for me was meditation, because I had such high anxiety, so many triggers. Oh my gosh, so many triggers. Oh my gosh, so many triggers. And you know there's sirens around us all the time. I mean I would hear them at my house and feel like they were coming to my house for miles. Just one of my huge triggers. There's many, so I felt like I was triggered all the time. So meditation is huge and I found this guy, dr Joe Dispenza. He's amazing and he talks about healing ourselves on a natural soul kind of level through meditation and the way we speak to ourselves and reprogramming our brains, self-talk and all of that. I mean it's so important.

Speaker 2:

You know, I used to wake up every morning and think, oh my God, I woke up again, and that was my first thought. And my second thought was, oh my God, maddie's still dead. Then I'd be like, okay, well, I just have to get through one more day. That would be like setting myself up for a horrible day, traumatized day, for a day of doom and gloom and misery and depression and just wanting to die. So I had to change my morning routine and I knew that. But I learned that through Joe Dispenza, I had to change my morning routine. So now I wake up and, before my brain gets too awake, I'll meditate and do something positive for my brain the first thing in the day.

Speaker 2:

I like Deepak Chopra and he has 21 day meditation challenges which have also saved my life. You know, I did the 21 day challenge over and over and over and I just start over again and he talks about gratitude and being grateful for your day and having grace, and so hard to be grateful when you wake up thinking my daughter's dead. So that's something you have to force on yourself. You really do. You have to make a choice. It's a choice and it's not always easy to make that choice. Sometimes I'm like you know what? I'm just going to choose to be mad today, because that's where I'm at, you know.

Speaker 1:

It's about honoring your feelings. You know, sometimes you can't always fight them, because that's exhausting, it is yeah. Sometimes you just honor them.

Speaker 2:

You have to. I feel like you have to schedule the honoring, because it helps you to get it out, you know, to have that time and be able to honor your anger, and this is why I like smash rooms right, because you can schedule your anger release. I love these kinds of tools. I think they're amazing for healing, you know.

Speaker 1:

Never done it, but you know I'd probably be pretty good at it.

Speaker 2:

I think everyone would be.

Speaker 1:

You know anyone that's got a little bit of anger anywhere you know, I love the scheduling. I haven't had anybody say that Scheduling. You know the time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, honor your emotions, especially somebody like me who's a little structured, you know I am probably more committed, even if it's 15 minutes in the morning, or you take Tuesday off and you do a half a day, or of just self-care and honoring all of the feelings that come up, and just let them come up. You know, dig in with journaling. Journaling has helped me. Journaling is a huge part of why I'm better, you know, getting it out. And I say even if, cause like I, I get um, my hand falls asleep and so I can't always write anymore with a pen and paper. So I use my phone and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah into my phone. Some of my books were written through me, just speaking through my phone, because I couldn't write anymore, I couldn't type anymore.

Speaker 1:

I was like, ah, Well, and that's something great to do when you're walking, because walking is good for depression and just getting out of the house and having that fresh air and the sunshine or the snow, depending on where you are.

Speaker 2:

I used to float on the pool and I did have my phone and I would just, you know, get in my floaty, have my little drink and my phone and just go to town, just let it all out. Phone and just go to town, let it all out. Another thing I've really enjoyed is see, I moved to Florida from Colorado three years ago. Maddie's been transitioned for six now, so I was pretty deep in my depression that first year. But the pool and the floating, oh my gosh, it helped me so much and, ironically, I mean, she drowned. So it was really weird.

Speaker 2:

I was always scared of water. I didn't hate water, I hated being in water. I like being on the side of water. I love water when it's on the side, you know. But even our trips because after Maddie had cancer she was like we need to travel and go somewhere and appreciate life and find joy and blah, blah, blah, right, so we travel, travel, travel always had to have the pool, the ocean and the palm trees. You know, wherever we went, it had to have those three ingredients.

Speaker 2:

So after the first time or so, she would say mom, get in the pool with me and I'm like honey, I don't like to be in the pool. It makes me pruney and I don't like it. I like to sunbathe and then when I get hot, I get in, I dip, I get out. You know, for all of the years that we traveled, we had to have a girlfriend go with maddie so that she could have someone to play in the pool with and I could be on the side of the pool. But ironically, now and it's weird because right after she drowned in that pool I think it was the next day or maybe it was two days later at the very most that I went back to the pool and I sat on the side, right where she drowned, and I had to make peace with the water because I knew if I didn't, I would never look at a pool again.

Speaker 2:

And that's a memory of Maddie in mind. That is our whole life, something that has given us both peace, the pools and the water and the ocean. And she's a fish. She was a fish, she was a solid swimmer. I had to be friends with water again and now I can soak in water for hours and hours and the pruning never bothers me. I don't even know if I prune anymore. I don't even pay attention. I mean, it's really crazy how that changed for me completely.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that's amazing because some people like that is such a trigger to go back to where they had passed away and, and you know, you were able to make friends with it. I really love the way that you put that. It's great, you know. Let's talk a little bit about the shallow water drowning. I had never heard of it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, me either. So, basically, your body gets confused, your brain gets confused. Typically, when your oxygen level decreases, your carbon dioxide level increases and that's what triggers your brain to say, hey, it's time to breathe. Well, I don't know the scientific explanation of this. Don't know the scientific explanation of this. For some reason, the confusion happens and as your oxygen level decreases, your carbon dioxide level keeps going down too. Okay, so you don't ever get that message to breathe and that's what makes you pass out.

Speaker 2:

I really highly recommend doing the research yourself, because I understand it to some degree, but it's like me trying to. I don't know. Speak German. You know what I mean. I don't know German. So please do the research and look for how to see the signs so that you know if it's happening in your pool, you know if it's happening to your child. That's really important to know the signs and then what to do as soon as you see them Because, like I said earlier, you only have two and a half minutes before they're brain dead.

Speaker 2:

The buddy system is highly recommended and if you're going to be holding breath, you know, do it with a buddy that's not holding his breath at the same time his or her, do it with a buddy that's going to watch and make sure that you don't pass out, and then you switch, but you don't do it at the same time competing and not knowing what the other one's doing or if the other one's in trouble. That competition thing in the that has to stop when there's no supervisor. It's, and you don't think you have to supervise your kids when they're 18 and in the pool in three feet of water. You know she could have stood up three feet of water, but obviously when you pass out, you can't, can't do anything. So it also happens in diving, and I honestly don't know if it's more common or not that. I would say, though, that those are the ones that are commonly called shallow water blackout. Madison's autopsy said she drowned, so you don't really have solid statistics on how many drownings in a pool are shallow water blackout.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Is there anything else you would like to share that maybe I have not touched upon today?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think I probably want to go back to the suicide thing and just say you know, if, if you're so depressed that you don't want to live anymore, you want to take your life. First of all, no judgment. If you're not someone who wants to take their life, stop judging people that do, because you just don't know their pain and you don't want to Trust me. You don't want to know their pain. I would say, if you are someone there's so many outlets and there's hotlines and there's people out there that really do care.

Speaker 2:

And I know I've I've seen some uh statistics on how many times and I can't remember them off the top of my head but how many times it goes unnoticed because people get sick of here. Oh, you just, you're just talking, you don't really want to kill yourself, you just want attention, you just want someone to, you know, feel sorry for you or whatever. That is not the case and I can't tell you how many times I had to reach out to people and say I really want to kill myself, I really do. I had to have somebody talk me off the ledge.

Speaker 2:

I personally, most of the time chose someone who has lost a child to talk me down off the fence, because they can understand and they have empathy and they really understand what I'm going through. It's not like I'm telling someone I want to die that has never felt that before. That's the big thing. Find your lane. Find the people in your life that relate to you, that understand. I mostly hang out with people that are grieving now because they get me and they don't say stupid stuff to me. They get it. That's where I found comfort and healing and a place to fall.

Speaker 1:

Basically find your tribe. Find your tribe.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and look for it until you find it, so that you do have that support, because nobody wants to lose you. No mom wants to lose you. I get it too. I really, really, really get it. It's still very hard for me to want to live this day through. It's very hard for me to want to see this day through. I love nighttime, when I get to go night night and shut it all off now, and sometimes I have to take days where I just shut it all off now, and sometimes I have to take days where I just shut it all off. But reach out. Reach out to the people that get you find them. They're all over the internet.

Speaker 1:

What I appreciate about you and all my guests is part of the reason that we are here today is to let others know that they are not alone.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

Right and I love all of the advice that you give them. And if you are listening and can relate to Michelle, she's part of your tribe.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yeah, yeah, and you can find me on Facebook. I am Michelle C Butler and I do workshops with grievers. You know, I like to call them healing workshops instead of grieving. I think a lot of the grief support groups are all about grieving and not about focusing on healing. Not that we don't sit and talk about things that are bothering us or whatever. It's not like we don't. I don't want to say the word complain, but you know what I'm saying Like there's some negative aspects to it.

Speaker 2:

There's going to be we're grieving, but I try to bring in some positive tools to use for the people that join us, you know, so that we have some ways to heal. We have a center for spiritual care here in Vero Beach where they allow us to use the space so people from all backgrounds, all religions, all whatever, can come and join us and we can heal together. It's really nice and we need more of those. So just start a group in your community and find a place to do it for free, because that's what we need. We need to be a community and heal together. This is everywhere. We're not just select few that are grieving together. This is everywhere we're not just select few that are grieving. It's a lot of people. You know there's loss of everything loss of jobs, loss of parents, loss of spouse, loss of siblings. There's a loss of your memory. There's so many different losses that we all grieve. You know. See where that takes you. That's helped me heal so much. Helping others has helped me heal so much.

Speaker 1:

I understand that, Michelle. Thank you for being my guest today on the I Need Blue podcast. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2:

I really appreciate it. I appreciate you giving me a voice today. Thank, you.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening. This is Jen Lee with the I Need Blue podcast. You can find anything and everything about I Need Blue on my website, wwwinadebluenet. Please share this episode if there is somebody who you feel could benefit from this message, and remember you are stronger than you think. Until next time.

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Jennifer Lee

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